What is scarier, remaining in a toxic relationship that no longer serves your great purpose or the unknown? It might seem like an obvious choice, but when you’re in the thick of it, life’s complexities can often keep you from choosing the healthiest option for you and your children. Today’s guest chose bravery by stepping into the unknown of single motherhood and turned her fear around her situation into possibility.
In today’s episode, I am talking with Kari Friedman, business owner and mom of 5, who bravely and vulnerably shares her story on becoming and embracing being a single mom. Kari advocates for the destigmatization of single motherhood by empowering single moms to take charge of their life even after hardship.
In our conversation, we’re talking about the scariness of choosing the unknown, why there is shame around being a single mom (and how we can fix that as a society), what goes into being a single mother, and how we can support the single mothers in our lives.
Follow along with Kari @karifriedman
Gabby Bernstein Books
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Music by Taylor Ryan
“Being a single mom is not going to ruin your life. Okay? There’s a lot of things that can ruin your life, and making a choice that is healthier for you and your children isn’t. It’s actually a good thing. So I speak about it to normalize it.” – Kari Friedman
“I think it’s important for women who are single moms or former single moms to show other women that, not only did we not ruin our lives, but we’re living our best lives. We’re living great lives that you can provide for your child or your children.” – Kari Friedman
There’s a lot of things that can ruin your life, and making a choice that is healthier for you and your children isn’t.
Meg: Welcome Kari. I’m so excited to have you on the Whimsy and Wellness podcast.
Kari: Thank you for having me here.
Meg: Okay, so I can’t remember how I originally started following you. I probably heard you in a Facebook essential oil group or something. But I remember sitting and listening to your story, wherever it was on the interweb. And thinking, first of all, it was a breath of fresh air, because it was unique. I think sometimes, in the essential oil world, the stories can feel very similar. So it was just really, really refreshing that this is different. But also, wow she’s brave enough to bring her vulnerability and the hardships to the table. I could just picture who your message was helping and it just made me so excited. I tucked it in the back of my pocket because I love people’s stories. Then when we started this podcast, I’m just like, we have to have Kari on to talk about single motherhood because it’s not talked about enough, especially in this community, right?
Kari: Yep. Completely. We need and we need to normalize it. So I’m super excited to share.
Meg: So do you want to tell us a little bit about yourself and your story of being a single mom?
Kari: Absolutely. So when I was 25 years old, I was living in New York City, and had gone to grad school up there, was working out there. I was dating a guy and got pregnant. I didn’t even find out that I was pregnant until after we had broken up. And he was just not the right guy. He was not even a really good human being. There’s some times that were are in relationships that are not working. We’ll just go our separate ways. We’ll be cordial and maybe friendly. But no, this was not a good human being type of person.
Choosing The Unknown
So I found out I was pregnant. At first I thought, well, maybe I’ll try to work it out with him this is the baby’s father. Maybe we could salvage something here. As the relationship progressed, it just became very apparent that, no, this is not the person that I could raise a child with or live with. I’m not going to spend the rest of my life with this man. So then I figured out that I would co-parent. We would just co-parent. We would raise our son, we wouldn’t be in a relationship.
Then at some point, I was around 34 weeks, 35 weeks pregnant. My mother really encouraged me to talk to an attorney. And that was really pivotal for me. I talked to an attorney and she basically said, if you have the baby in the state of New York, and the baby will, the state has jurisdiction. Meaning, if I wanted to leave New York and move back to California, where my family was, that’s where I was raised. That was my support network within California. So if I wanted to move back home across the country, I’d have to have his permission. I just knew that this man would not give me permission.
So at 35 weeks pregnant, I packed up my apartment in three days, left my job, and had $2,000 in my bank account, a ton of credit card debt insurance was ending in 60 days. I moved home, I moved home to a very large piece of humble pie. It was very scary. But I remember I was at this point where I thought, okay what is scarier? Remaining in a relationship that is toxic and not good? Or the unknown? What is scarier? I picked the unknown.
I’m so grateful that I had my mom and somebody who loved me to encourage me to just talk to an attorney, just see what the legal ramifications are. A lot of women don’t know that. A lot of women don’t know that if they have the baby in the state that the Father is in, that they need his permission to leave. That might not be a big deal if the woman and her support network are there, but if it’s me, and her support network is 3000 miles away, that can greatly affect her.
Meg: Yeah, for sure. I love that question that you asked yourself of what’s scarier? The unknown or staying. What a great question to ask ourselves because that’s huge. I’ve heard that before, you’ll leave when staying is scarier. So that all sounds terrifying. I’m an enneagram six. So I’m just peeing myself. So what was the scariest part of all of that?
Overcoming Scary Situations
Kari: I think the scariest part when you’re pregnant, for the women that are tuning into the podcast that have had babies, you’re just in a different state of vulnerability. You’re growing this life inside of you. Automatically everything turns on to okay I have to go into protection mode for my child. So I started thinking of okay well, would I be able to provide for my son?
I was a teacher, I was leaving my teaching job, I wasn’t certified to teach in the state of California. So I was moving across the country to a state that I didn’t have a credential to teach. I didn’t have much money saved up. My health insurance was ending. I wasn’t from a family with a trust fund that was going to take care of everything for me. So I had to figure it out. And that was scary. The other part that was scary was will I ever find love? I wanted to be married with children. That was not my idea of having my first child was with my mom and fleeing a toxic relationship and not knowing how I would provide for my son. So all of that was probably just the scariest part.
Meg: Yeah, for sure. I could definitely imagine that. How old is that baby?
Kari: Liam will be 12 years old in July.
Meg: Wow. Well, congrats. So you’re not a single mom anymore. But this topic is still so important to you. And you still speak about it. So why is it so important to you to continue to share your story and advocate for other single moms?
Destigmatizing Single Moms
Kari: Well, I think that there’s still a big stigma about being a single mom. And the traditional family unit is still very idolized and prized. I mean, we see this in literature, we see this in movies. There’s plenty of movies and films and books that are coming out that are showing more. I guess the best word would be a nontraditional family and what that looks. But that’s still a traditional family unit of mother and father and children.
Another thing is, I conceived Liam when I wasn’t married. There’s a group of single moms that are leaving a marriage and then there’s a group of single moms that had a baby outside of wedlock. So that takes us down to another notch of shame that’s wrapped around that. Especially women from various religions, that can be a very shamed thing in their religion. So the more that we talk about it and normalize it, I think more women are going to not feel this is that though.
I remember being sorry, thinking I’m messing up my entire life. I remember feeling like I ruined my life. And being a single mom is not going to ruin your life. Okay? There’s a lot of things that can ruin your life, and making a choice that is healthier for you and your children isn’t. It’s actually a good thing. So I speak about it to normalize it.
I think it’s important for women who are single moms or former single moms to show other women that. Not only did we not ruin our lives, but we’re living our best lives. We’re living great lives that you can provide for your child or your children.
Think about a single mom, what images come up? Yeah, lonely, works three jobs to provide, on baggage, used goods. If we start thinking of the imagery that starts coming up what we associate with single mom, empowered entrepreneur or family provider woman who knows what she wants. Those images are usually not that the images that pop up when somebody says, single mom. I hope that if more women like me talk about this. Maybe we’ll get to a time where some of those images pop up when we think of a single mom.
Meg: Yes. I love that. So much. We had Caroline Gardener on the podcast, and she talked all about personal biases. And that’s such a good example of one. What do you think of when you think single mom? Even single moms think it right?
Kari: I think you have the single moms who are currently single moms that share their story. But very often once single moms become not single moms, they get in another relationship, they close that chapter. And they no longer talk about it.
So I think the rare women who say okay, I might not still be a single mom, but that’s part of my story. I’m still advocating for those women. That is so huge, right? Because I’m sure that just feels so lonely when you’re in it. I want to look to someone who’s steps ahead of me. And it’s hard when a lot of times people just close that chapter and move forward. Which, no judgement, everyone has their own path. But it’s amazing when people just keep the conversation and all of that going.
The Shame Around Being A Single Mom
Meg: So you mentioned shame, which I think is definitely a huge part of the struggle with being a single mom. And something that I want to say before I asked my next question, which I learned from my girl crush Brene Brown, which I always used to mix up embarrassment, guilt and shame, right? People mix them all up. I used to also, and I learned from Bernie, that guilt is, I did something bad. Shame is, I am something bad. And there’s nothing wrong with guilt. Sometimes I’ve said that there’s learning and guilt, but shame there’s no place for shame. So I just wanted to set that platform first. So why do you think so many women are ashamed to be single moms?
Kari: So I think it goes back to what society has laid the groundwork down for us and what we think that other people think of us. So Brene Brown says that shame is I am, right? So this concept of I am used goods, nobody’s gonna want me, those are deeply ingrained. When I think about it, no one ever told me those things. I never read it in a textbook, I never had a teacher say, single moms are used goods. But I remember feeling that it was going to be very difficult for me to find love in a romantic relationship or to be married because I was now had a scarlet letter on me. It’s this letter of shame.
The other piece that makes it very complex, is you love your child. So then there’s this very bizarre paradox, or maybe more of a dichotomy of you just birthed this most beautiful baby or you have these children that you love and adore so much. But the person that you made them with –not everybody’s experience is that, some people have a very healthy separation. But for some people, they can’t stand the sight of that person. They are repelled by the thought of it.
And now they have this a scarlet letter of shame. That they’re used goods, that you’re damaged. I truly think it is just the way that society has elevated the idea of the traditional family and that that’s something that people should want.
Not a lot of people take classes, not a lot of kids are taught how to be an entrepreneur. So the majority of kids Oh, well, how do I be successful in life, I’m gonna go to school and get my education and get a job and be employed by Sunday, which is not bad. That’s not bad. That’s just one of the ways that you can provide for your life. That’s just one. That’s just one direction, right? But oftentimes society gives us this one way of doing things. And if you don’t do it that way, you’re weird. You’re wrong huh,
Meg: Yeah, for sure. I totally agree. And the staying for the kids thing. I think that is heavily put on moms and dads. Why are you doing that to your kids? As far as it’s that all gets put on the mom? Yeah. And also same with the damaged goods. I don’t know if single dads are viewed as damaged goods
Raising Kids As A Single Mom Vs. Single Dad
Kari: Right? Well, again, this is not everybody. This is not every situation. But many times the children live with the mother, especially if they’re little. Especially if they’re babies. Especially if the mom is not working then she will and many couples have a 50/50 visitation thing. But there’s many women that the children go with the mom for the majority part of the time, where there’s a lot of single dads.
When I met my husband, he was a single dad, but he wasn’t raising his daughter in his house. I had my son, I was raising my son with me. There was a quote that a friend of mine shared and she has a divorce mentorship Instagram page, and she shared it on that page. She said that children would rather be from a broken home than live in one. When I read that, I was like dang, if there is a mom out there that’s wondering, should I stay for the sake of my children? She needs to read that.
When I was 17, my parents got divorced. I remember a vivid memory of being about six or seven years old and my parents throughout my entire childhood, just always, always, always argued. To the point where if they held hands or showed affection, I thought that was weird. I was like, why are they touching each other? That was so rare that any affection between them was uncomfortable for me and weird. But I had this very very detailed memory of closing myself in the laundry room, and crying and praying that they would get divorced at the young age of six or seven. I knew what divorce was, I had some friends because it was so miserable. And it was another 10 it was a decade until they got divorced. but I think going back to that quote, children would rather be from a broken home than live in one, raising children in a home that is with parents that are constantly arguing and that don’t love each other is not healthy for them.
Meg: Right? So when I was preparing for this interview, I was reading how we often think Oh, I don’t want my kid to be from a broken home. But there is no evidence pointing to a child’s happiness being linked to whether or not their parents are married. It’s solely about the atmosphere and all of that in the home. Married or not does not impact them. Whether it’s ourselves, or we know someone who is now an adult that says, I wish my parents just got a divorce. I know it’s hard to touch on all different types of relationships. But you mentioned yours was very toxic. I want to touch on that for women listening who are either in a toxic relationship or maybe have just left one. Why do you think we stay in toxic relationships?
Why We Stay In Toxic Relationships
Kari: Because comfort is easy and change is hard. When I say comfort if you’re living in a toxic relationship that’s not really comfortable. No, but what part of it makes it comfortable? So is it because that person is the provider and because you don’t have a job? Is it because that person does pick up the kids from school and it’s actually helpful? Is it because everybody’s on his health insurance? Does that mean little things like this are the reason why people stay together? Because it’s easy. It seems easier, and it seems more comfortable than the change.
Another piece is this. I’m really passionate about women getting empowered with their finances, regardless of if they actually bring in an income or not. It is a large trend that, again, this is a generalization. So not every relationship is like this. But many times in a marriage between a man and a woman, the men, or the man manages the finances. So women get very overwhelmed with like, I don’t even know how I would pay for my rent or a mortgage, or how I would do the income? It starts getting very overwhelming. So they feel like, I can’t do this, I can’t provide, I don’t even understand how. So I think the financial piece is really, really, really big for why a lot of women stay. They stay for the children, they think that that’s the honorable thing to do and that leaving would be selfish would be an act for them. Again you said, there’s no research that shows that children’s happiness is linked to the marriage staying together, right?
Meg: Yeah. With your example of entrepreneurship, but it goes with leaving a toxic relationship, or even just not even toxic, but just not a good fit. I think when we show our kids I’m gonna choose me, and that empowers them to do the same thing. We grow up having it modeled to us. Especially if, as a little girl and her mom. My mom is so selfless. And she does everything for us. She never left, it’s hard for that little girl to grow into a woman who’s like I’m gonna choose me.
Changing Your ‘What If’ Scenarios Around
Kari: I’m gonna leave a toxic relationship? What if you were your baby? What would you tell her to do? I said, entrepreneurship people staying in jobs they hate. Would you want your babies too? I know not everybody can just quit their job. But I mean, it’s huge. It’s something that I challenge people to think about.
I saw a meme someplace on the internet. So I can’t give credit to where I found it. And it was what have you taken? Because we’re always like well, what if? What if I can’t figure out how to provide? What if I can’t figure out how to find my own place? What if I can’t?
What if you turn the what if into a positive what if? What if I actually got out of this toxic relationship, and got empowered and found an apartment or a house that was actually closer to where I want to be by the water? What if I got out of this toxic relationship? What if those tantrums that the five-year-old is doing actually weren’t happening because there wasn’t so much chaos and anger around them with the parents? What if I got out of this relationship and I actually found somebody that was worthy of me? You start dreaming about the wildest, most amazing things that could happen and you take that what if fear and turn it into what if of possibility. ,
Meg: I love that so so much. Okay, so I mentioned having women a step ahead of you. I’m a new mom myself and having mom friends who are in the same season as me is helpful, but having them in the seasons ahead, that can look back and be like Okay, this is what you think or don’t even worry about that is so helpful. I think you are that person for a lot of single moms. And that’s one of the reasons I’m so so excited about this episode. So if there’s a mom listening to this, who’s considering leaving a toxic relationship, or maybe she knows deep down this is not okay. What piece of encouragement would you give to her?
Stepping Into The Unknown & Taking Back Your Life
Kari: If you can go back to that question I shared at the beginning of our chat, which was to really think, what’s scarier? Remaining in this toxic relationship that no longer serves me and therefore no longer serves my great purpose of being here of living this life? Or the unknown?
To start really thinking sometimes it’s like, well, what, what’s the worst that can happen? Do you know what I mean? Because when you start thinking about how crappy life is in this toxic marriage or toxic relationship, usually when you start thinking about the other side, the possibilities actually start looking really good. I would encourage those moms to think about this not a dress rehearsal. This is your life.
Yeah, those are your babies. How are you going to show up? The question that you asked, if that was your baby, what would you? What would you tell them to do? Yeah, it is a big concept to ask yourself.
Meg: Yeah, so good. I have chills. So do you have any favorite resources that you recommend to single moms? Or soon-to-be single moms?
Kari: I would say so much. Sometimes our brain, because we’re often in that survival mode, right? That protection mode of providing for our children, and how would we be able to do this? So we get into this space of, well, how and all these details, right? Well, how would I get the kids to school? But really, the work needs to start with believing that you are worthy of a better life, that you are worthy of a better relationship. If that’s even what you want to do is be in another relationship, right?
I was actually talking to a good friend of mine the other day, and she’s recently a single mom. Got divorced in December of last year, and she’s like, I don’t think I’d ever get married again. That’s where she’s at right now. That’s totally fine. But I think that the work starts within yourself.
So I would encourage books like, The Audacity To Be Queen by Gina Devi. Jen Sincero, You Are A Badass. If there’s anything about money, Jen Sincero also has You’re A Badass At Making Money. And Gabby Bernstein any of her books. Self-empowerment books to start making these women feel like they are absolutely capable, at a time where they’re feeling a lot of doubt.
That stigma is there, where society is doubting. And I would say definitely those books. And then for women that are recently divorced, and it’s on Instagram called, The Divorce Mentorship, and it’s actually a friend of mine. She’s divorced and has a podcast, but she definitely has posts and things like that. And I love what she shares on that page as well.
Meg: I love that. Even as simple as someone to talk to, right? Your mom was that person who said maybe you should speak with a lawyer. If there’s any way you can lean on someone. Going back to that shame. Sometimes we’re in a relationship with a toxic person. And we take that on. We’re ashamed of them. And so it’s like, I can’t go to someone. But that’s not for you to carry or own or anything like that. I also love Untamed by Glennon Doyle. Yes. yet. I feel for single moms would be so so good. Absolutely.
How To Support Single Moms
Okay, so for support people, I said in the intro of this episode I told people don’t swipe on by just because you’re not a single mom, because it’s so important. We can’t just know our own stories, right? It’s so important to know how you can support other women and moms within your circle. There’s no doubt we know a single mom or a mom who’s struggling in a really hard relationship within our circle. So I want to talk about how we can best support people. I think if we don’t live it, the unknown again, is just scary, and it’s awkward. So we’re like, I’ll just say nothing. I don’t know what to do. Right. So what do you wish your friends and family knew back then when you were a newly single mom? Things that they could have done?
Kari: So the first thing I would say is I think a lot of people felt sorry for me. When I look back, they’re like, I probably feel sorry for her. A first-time mom, she had a New York life that she loves but really, it took a lot of courage. Now looking back at where I am, people realize what a courageous act that was to be 35 weeks pregnant and get myself on an airplane and he had to talk to an attorney.
But at the time, I think people felt sorry. So I think that it would be helpful for us to remind our friends who are going through a divorce or becoming a single mom how courageous they are, and how proud you are of them for doing something for themselves that is going to be beneficial for their children. I think in terms of what could we do for our mom, friends that are single moms, and offer things? I’m thinking of the pandemic and when grocery stores were closed, at least here you couldn’t get toilet paper. Getting to the store was stressful for me. And I’m married. I have a nanny who helps me out, right? Can you imagine what it would be like to get your shopping done?
So that would have been a great time to reach out and say, Hey I’m going and making a run at the grocery store? Can I grab something for you? Just offering. Be mindful that single moms, I always say being a stay-at-home mom is a full-time job. Being a mom is a full-time job. So if they don’t have a partner, supporting them at home, their two jobs, and then if they actually have a job. Acknowledge that and be mindful of that. You know what I mean? Be mindful of that.
I would always say include them. I think that people are uncomfortable. I said, I just had a friend of mine who went through a divorce in December, and she came over the other day, we were chatting. She was saying that going through a divorce, she was able to really weed out some of her friends that were there for her and weren’t there for her. And she was like, I want to offer grace for my friends that haven’t really been there for me. Because she’s like, some people just haven’t even reached out.
I think people do this when somebody loses somebody in debt. They just don’t know what to say, because they’re uncomfortable. Saying something is always better than not saying something and just being like, I’m here for you. And don’t offer. If they’re moving show up. Don’t be like, let me know if you need help. Show up. Just show me. I’m here with duct tape and boxes. Hey, I’m just showing up with some lunch because I know it’s moving day, and you probably don’t have anything to eat. It’s crazy.
So include them. Don’t be like, oh, they’re gonna feel the third wheel because they don’t have a partner. They would rather have you include them for the couple’s night out. Just call it night out whatever. You’re not going to offend them because they don’t have a partner to bring. And who knows, they might surprise you. They might include them offer.
It goes back to that question of what’s worse? I think sometimes it is that awkward Oh, I don’t want them to feel they’re the only single person; But what’s worse? Inviting them and then letting them choose if they want to be the only single person or not all of them finding out that they were invited? Not a good feeling.
Meg: Such good tips. You said with grief, I think sometimes what do you need? What can I do when whatever hard season you’re going through that can you’re literally I don’t know what I need? So just even thinking, what would I need? ? Yeah, what’s one thing and just say, I’m going to get your kids off the bus?
Kari: Exactly. If you pick your kids up from school? Yeah. Or that your kids are coming over after School on Friday. You go do something for yourself. Just make it a nonnegotiable. Just be like, no, this is what’s happening. They’re going to feel so grateful.
Meg: Yes, so good. Okay, so before we wrap up, I want to say that whether it’s a self-help book or a conversation like this, I think when you’re deep in it listening or reading, it can be sound so easy, but this is really hard. So I want to acknowledge it is hard. This podcast isn’t a shortcut. Those books Kari recommended aren’t a shortcut.
It’s going to hurt and be hard right? I hope that I’m saying this right, but Pema Chodron. I hope I’m not butchering her name. But she has a book called When Things Fall Apart and her advice for difficult times. There’s this quote in it that I lean on all the time. So even if the hot loneliness is there, and for 1.6 seconds, we sit with that restlessness, when yesterday, we could only sit with it for one, that’s the journey of the warrior. You don’t have to go from this is so hard to I did it and it didn’t even hurt. I’m perfect. Even if you could only do it for one second or you could only face it for one second yesterday, and today, you can face it for 1.6, absolutely doing it. That’s part of the journey.
Kari: Yes. Love it. At the end of the day, everybody has hardships in life. It’s not just single moms. It’s not people just who are going through grief. Life is gonna throw you curveballs and life is gonna be hard. There’s a saying, you get to choose your heart. How are you going to choose your heart today?
Meg: I love what you said about will he say that again? About it’s not a dress rehearsal.
Kari: Yeah, life is not a dress rehearsal. This is the one precious lifetime we have. I remind myself that all the time when my three-year-old is throwing a miserable tantrum, when I’m doing my taxes, and I don’t want to do it. When I went to the dentist this morning. Life is not a dress rehearsal. This is the one time we get to show up.
I truly believe that we’re all here for this incredible purpose. The chances of you being here and me being here are very small. I always make people feel really funny, but just think about the billions of sperm that we’re racing me. Hopefully, you survive. You have been a champion since conception. That is remarkable. So you are a champion since conception, and it doesn’t mean life’s gonna be easy. Some days you’re gonna feel like a champion. But honestly, single moms are always champions to me.
Meg: Amen to that. Are you ready for rapid fire before? Fill in the blank. I wish I could tell my younger self blank.
Kari: Doesn’t matter what people think about you.
Meg: I love it so much. I’m still learning that. What is your enneagram number?
Kari: Eight. I don’t think I even have a wing. Just eight.
Meg: I love it. What are you proudest of?
Kari: Birthing humans. Making them, birthing them. That is magical stuff. Second would be my business because that’s how I have grown a business it’s like growing a baby recently.
Meg: Yeah, seriously. Okay, and because we’re Whimsy and Wellness, what is your current go to essential oil roller recipe?
Kari: I’ll be honest anything with Patchouli? Patchouli is underrated but surely you just need to put all the Patchouli in all the things throw a little orange in there maybe a little Ylang Ylang hard opener. I know it’s rough but you got to do it and lavender. It truly is grounding and earthy but get some tree oil in there. Idaho Blue Spruce or Northern Lights Black Spruce. If you need to sweeten it up when vanilla comes back in stock. I love vanilla in there. But anything with Patchouli.
Meg: I literally love that. You just pull that out of nowhere. That recipe literally is my favorite. Everyone’s usually oh, I have a perfect memory or writes the recipe and I love that you’re just little in this little, a little bit how many drops?
Kari: I don’t know, feel it see what you’re feeling today?
Meg: Yes, yes. Okay, and then where can people find you and follow along with you.
Kari: I’m just Kari Friedman on Instagram. If you go to that page that will also link you to my ranch house page, which is Dream Catcher Ranch. That is my next big project if you have a crown, Diamond and Young Living and that is my main business. But last year, my husband and I purchased a ranch house on the central coast of California, it’s on about 20 acres of land. And we’re excited to start doing some rentals. It was our dream to have a house there for the past decade. By a lot of dreaming and hard work, we made it happen. So it’s a fun place if you’re a dreamer, and you’d like to keep some good modern farmhouse slash coastal living stuff. Go check it out.
Meg: Love it. Well, thank you so much. I will link your Instagram in the show notes for listeners and the books we mentioned. And anything else that needs a link you guys can find in the show notes. But thank you so much for your vulnerability and willingness to just be open. It gives me chills to think of the people that it will touch. So I just appreciate you so so much.