How can you transition from art as a hobby to art as a profitable income? Pursuing art doesn’t have to remain a dream, or even a side hustle. When you understand what your unique approach to art is, you can start to position your artistic creativity in a way that makes sense for you, and build a business from there.
In today’s episode, I am talking to Lo Harris, illustrator, animator, and digital artist who focuses on highlighting confidence, joy and humanity in her artwork. Lo is sharing her journey from taking her art from a side hustle to a full time business, how she helps new creatives along, where her passion for lifting other artists up came from, and why she wants to contribute to the narrative of the current culture through her art.
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Music by Taylor Ryan
Meg: Well you guys I have Lo Harris here with me thank you so much for being here low
Lo: Thank you Meg
Meg: okay so I know we have all types of entrepreneurs and creators and artists and just other types of dreamers listening so I’m just really really pumped for them to hear from you because you have quite the spirit the entrepreneurial spirit can you tell us a little bit about yourself and your story
Lo: absolutely I’m Lo Harris. I’m an illustrator and an animator based in New York. I am a digital artist and I like to focus a lot on confidence, joy, humanity. I use strong figures and relational compositions to and really really specific characters to envision a more just in time world in my work so it’s all very vibrant it’s all very colorful it’s all very joyful and there’s definitely a sense of optimism there.
I’m a recovering journalist so I used to be in the news and I took that leap of faith this past January to pursue my art full time and I have to say it is the best decision that I have made for myself in five years of Living. Which isn’t a lot of years of living but I made that decision and I don’t regret it.
Meg: That’s amazing congratulations
Lo: Thank you
The Pillars Of Art
Meg: That was just awesome. So I loved what you were saying about the themes of your art because I totally see that when I look at your instagram or your youtube I definitely get that joy and upbeat and like confidence it’s so beautiful and so I love that you use those words because that’s what I feel. And I love that your instagram bio reads champion championing vibrant confidence and joy. Can you tell us why these pillars are so important to you?
Lo: Absolutely, I think that these pillars definitely formulated themselves as I started to get more comfortable with my work and the contents of what I liked to draw. It wasn’t a thing where I sat down and put on a pantsuit and said what my marketing is and how am I going to make this work.
I definitely did have to take some inventory over what I was doing, how people were perceiving my work like what people were saying they really enjoyed about my work in order to learn more about myself. I had to step outside of myself for that process in order to take inventory of what my work was projecting. I think that one of the things, in terms of the confidence, I love to draw these lady characters. I’m not limited to drawing women only. I’d have drawn men. I have drawn non human. It’s not limited in that capacity.
But I think that a signature element of my work is this strong femininity and they’re never very soft or frail. They’re always very strong and grounded and shapely and just very confident figures. I don’t really draw lots of somber things, I think that my character is also, someone pointed out to me, tends to have a smile most of the time. It’s very rare they’re not smiling or they look like joy because they look cheeky. So the joy aspect of it is also important for me too because a lot of people find some social justice resonance within my work
Contributing To The Narrative Through Art
One of the things that I think is important as I continue to communicate my worldview as a black woman through my work is this emphasis on black joy and how a lot of the times people are very preoccupied with the trauma of blacks. We see it a lot in the media and I think we’re having conversations such as about George Floyd, about Black Lives Matter, about all of these things that are happening in the world that are so important it’s so relevant I think that it’s important for me to do my part by contributing to the narrative of creating some restorative and healing art for black women. Especially because we see so much of this struggle and we’re indoctrinated as black women with all of these narratives or struggles so much. I want to provide some art that allows some refuge to breathe and to enjoy and appreciate themselves or yourself. So, joy in spite of not it, not an ignorance of the trauma that is happening in the world is something that I stand by very, very strongly.
Meg: Wow, that is beautiful. Oh, I just love that. I can see that when I look at your work these women or characters that you’re drawing are bold. I look at them and even though they’re cartoons, sorry for my art ignorance vocabulary. You look up to them. They’re bold and confident. And for listeners who haven’t seen Lo’s work, if you just go over to her Instagram, you will know what I’m talking about. They just are characters that you’re like, Oh, yeah, I want to be like that. So I just want to speak to what you’re going for is happening.
Lo: Thank you. I’m glad it’s translated.
When Art Came About
Meg: Yes. Okay, so let’s go back to when you were a little girl. Have you always been an artist? Or did that come along later?
Lo: Hmm. I have always been interested in art and drawing, but the way that I process that wasn’t necessarily in this aspirational, I want to be an artist way. I think that is interesting, too, because I’ve always very specifically been interested in digital art. And of course, I didn’t think of it as digital art. That wasn’t a term that was pretty popular at that point. I remember very early on when my dad bought my family our first computer and I would hop on there. And he would let me play on it.
Even though it costs a lot of money, like he was very much like, if you make a mistake, you’ll learn lessons from it, it’s fine. And I would hop on the computer, and I’m playing with all these things. And then fast forward, I was very obsessed with Microsoft Paint. I remember drawing on my mouse with Microsoft Paint and being very, very involved in that process.
Then fast forward to getting really interested in online art communities in middle school. I used to print out these art tutorials and practice anatomy. And at the time, I was going to an arts high school, it was a middle school slash high school. I was going to this art school called the Alabama School of Fine Arts. And I was studying creative writing.
So I was doing these writing workshops and interior writing competitions and doing readings and doing juries, etc. But I was surrounded by my other peers in the visual arts department and I would look at how they took their craft seriously in a different way. They were doing the equivalent that I was doing in creative writing. And because I was surrounded by visual artists, trained visual artists, at that time, I didn’t necessarily think that what I was doing qualified as visual arts.
I didn’t think of it as art, I just think of it as drawing and more of a hobby. And it never occurred to me that at all that I will be doing this as my living. But I ended up focusing in on writing and ended up going to journalism school, joining the NBC page program, working in media entertainment, working in a newsroom.
Then all of these things sort of happened to where I suddenly found myself reacquainting myself with that child who was on Microsoft Paint. And getting back into the business of drawing and realizing that that was the most successful, most potent way that I could express myself and that I can express myself and I derive great pleasure from just creating things and creating a world of art.
Meg: Wow, so even though you weren’t always this digital artist, you have definitely always been a creative person.
Lo: Yeah, definitely more of the creative type. Definitely couldn’t do math.
Meg: I failed
Lo: Yes, me too. I just wish I could tell my third grade self when they tell you you can’t use your fingers or a calculator in the real world. I was gonna be like, Yeah, you can.
Meg: Yep. Okay, so when did making a living or even just making money from your art become an idea or and then a dream in your heart?
When Art Become A More Than A Dream
Lo: Absolutely. I think that my art started when I originally made my art Instagram, LoHarris_art. I made it as an opportunity for me to practice this and develop my own creative style now again before I had been interested in different forms of digital art. Before I left for college I was practicing drawing every day but it was a hobby. When I went to college I hadn’t picked up anything at all. I hadn’t drawn anything.
I stopped. Went into the workforce and it didn’t do anything. Then I was sitting at work one day and one of my colleagues had an ipad. I worked as an associate animator at NBC news and one of my colleagues had an ipad and she was drawing. I looked at the ipad and I was like man if I had this when I was in high school and middle school my art would have been in another realm.
Again I was working from so many limitations I couldn’t really afford a nice tablet. I had to teach myself photoshop. I was doing all these things and had such limited resources. The ipad and Procreate made all of that, Procreate is an app that’s like $10 and it’s so powerful, it made it so accessible for me and I was like, what, I’m just gonna go ahead I’m gonna buy this? So I bought this ipad and I made this art instagram account.
My actual name is Lauren Harris but I chose the name Lo Harris for the art instagram because I didn’t want my friends to try to look up my name on instagram. They accidentally stumbled upon that page like that was slowly introduced people to and of course we know how that ended.
Being Invested In Finding Your Artistic Style
But I think that I really was so invested in finding my artistic style. My friend loaned me this lisa congdon book. I’m sorry if I’m pronouncing her last name wrong but she’s this artist. She started drawing and became a very popular artist when she was like 30 or she was an older. She’s older and she just did a complete career change and is now this esteemed illustrator who was commissioned by the white house to draw the inauguration invitations and stuff.
I got really into this idea of I’m going to find my style. I opened up pinterest and started following different artists discovering different digital artists. I felt like my mind was being opened to all of these new people that I had never really heard of. I was just so impressed by everyone. Everyone has such different styles and so then I just started drawing on my account and just quietly publishing things.
One exercise that I created myself was this sort of challenge for last February called 29 queens where I drew a different black woman from a different industry who made history and drew them and published one for every day of February. I think it was a leap year so it’s 29 queens. I did that and I was like cool. This is a great exercise.
Finding Her Breaking Point & Going Viral
Then fast forward to the protests, again I was working in journalism, and the day that the George Floyd footage started going around, I happened to be the person to pick up a graphic request that had to do with him dying. It was audio of him dying and I had to listen to it over and over because I had to animate the graphic for the new show to animate the words as he said them. Which, if it’s like a 15 second graphic, then that would take me maybe like two minutes with me listening to it over and over to get the timing right for the show.
So I remember just sitting there and New York’s in the middle of this shut down. We have a curfew and there are fireworks popping everywhere. I’m having to edit and listen to this man die in my ear as one of the few black employees.That was a breaking point for me.
I sat down and I drew this piece called Justice, which is a woman with their fists in the air and it says justice and I published it and I turned the comments off because I wasn’t interested in people commenting on it. But people really resonated. They started sharing it and then people started following my account and just all of this tension started coming to the account and it was very scary at first. I’ve never gone viral. I didn’t know what that would be like and my phone was ringing and buzzing constantly for like a few days.
Noticing The Dissonance Between Her Two Identities
When it was all finished, I started getting approached by different brands about drawing different things or people were buying my prints and one of the big breakout things was Amazon Prime Video reaching out saying hey do you want to do an instagram carousel for Juneteenth? I said yeah sure. That was like my first huge commercial gig and it was interesting because I’m used to working professionally in these fields anyway. But usually underneath a company.
So it was my first time with a huge commercial client really interfacing as myself. Representing myself and I thought oh yeah this is nice. I’m gonna pay off some student loans with this. This is it and it just kept coming in and this is all happening within the span of, this was last June. I mean, this all happened in such a short amount of time. I was side hustling, so I was working a lot where I was working ten to six at my actual job and then after that, catering to all of these client requests.
When it got to the point where some really cool opportunities had to be forgotten because I worked a nine to five, I was thinking I should seriously consider striking out on my own. Because there was a dissonance between how appreciated I felt as Lo Harris versus how appreciated I felt as Lauren Harris and employee at this company. There was like a complete dissonance and how I was treated or how was approached. So I felt like this was a rare opportunity for me to really jump into that. To sink my teeth into that and to make a run for it and see what happens
Meg: Wow what an amazing story. I did not realize all of that in such a short time. How surreal.
Lo: I’m like holding my breath thinking about it. I’m like, wow I can’t believe I did all of that.
Meg: Right it sounds like a movie
Lo: Yeah. When the opportunity was there I was like, well, I gotta grab this by the horns and see where it takes me
Meg: Definitely. So when did you go from working full time to for yourself as a freelance artist?
Lo: January 8 I think was my last day and it was glorious
Meg: That is incredible. Alright, so you are very passionate about helping other artists, correct?
Fostering Opportunity & Helping Other Artists Get Ahead
Meg: So where does that passion come from? To help and educate others get ahead not just yourself and not just your own art but other artists and other creatives
Lo: Absolutely. This is something that I’m very keen on especially now that I’m fully settled into this full time freelance world because I think that –and especially as artists who’s representing a marginalized identity as well –where I think a lot of times brands or clients will want to put us in all these little black history month artists. Then it’s like why are we having to compete as black history month artists?
But I think that one of the things that I’m very passionate about is this idea of fostering an ecosystem of abundant opportunity among myself and my peers within this digital art community. I think that a lot of that has to do with overcoming that sort of comparison that people might try to do between themselves and other artists. They start to feel bad and stuff. I think the one way to really combat that artists comparison is to find ways to actually give props, to give love to your peers and lift them up actively.
I think that’s a better use of my energy. So one thing that I like to do on instagram is there are so many artists that I discovered in this process of me just trying to find art and see what I like and even though a lot of these artists I have not very much in common with them aesthetically, I can tell you exactly what I love about their work. So on instagram I’ll just get on a day where I’m dressed cute because I don’t want to waste the look, hop on there and I’ll just get up there and i’ll be like oh, hey today I’m going to shout out three artists who I think really cool and why I think they’re cool . I’ll sit there and be like this person’s use of character is this and this person’s use of color is out of this world and it looks like this and that and go follow them. I’ll do those sorts of things.
Advocating For New Creatives
I also recently launched a YouTube channel geared toward early crew creatives. It’s really an empowerment tool and a mindset tool as well to help early career creators feel more comfortable with advocating for themselves , advocating for getting paid their worth, advocating for the time. Because I think that there’s this toxic conception about creative work that it’s somehow easy. So this value, if there’s a depreciation put on the value, by the average person and that’s not the case.
It takes a tremendous amount of intelligence and tremendous amount of discipline and technical skill for people to make these things and when brands or individuals or even agents art agents who are supposed to be advocating for these artists come in they’re giving them jobs that are way below market rate or just simply just not fair to them, I want people to feel comfortable saying no to that.
I want people to feel comfortable being able to know their worth and advocate for themselves in that way and also just get themselves prepared and know what they need to do in order to take their work and take their business to the next level as well so those are things that I had like may have readily available on youtube. I had the goal of doing it once a week. Things have been so busy that I definitely have had to. I’m gonna have to reconfigure that a bit, but that’s something that I do want to continue. To publish especially as I maneuver my own creative journey and I encounter challenges. It’s a great reflection tool for me as well.
Meg: Amazing and I agree that Ithink there’s this misconception that because creating art oftentimes the artist enjoys it a lot of times people assume like oh you enjoy it so you would do it for free for me and it’s just insulting as an artist. You wouldn’t ask a surgeon for a free surgery just because they went to college to be a surgeon.
What You Are Paying Artists For
Lo: It’s so interesting because they think oh you just click a few buttons and you’re having fun like there’s an infantilization that happens where it’s like no. This isn’t fun and games, it’s my job and there is value to this work that I’m providing you. You’re not paying me for how fast I can complete this. You’re paying me for my vision, the time it took me to be able to execute that vision, the time it took me to develop my creative expertise. You’re paying me for so much and there’s so much value in the work that I’m creating versus generic clipart. It’s not the same thing and I think that sometimes people just assume it’s a trade off is pretty equitable and that’s not the case.
Meg: So for listeners who are being asked for free or basically free whether it’s art or anything, what’s your encouragement to them?
Lo: I actually just published a youtube video on this. But I will say that I think that it’s important that what you create, the time it takes for you to create it, the expertise that goes into that, it’s all worth some form of money. Some form of compensation and that compensation you should be able to reckon with yourself on whether that compensation is worth it for you.
Payment Vs. Exposure
So when I made this video it was in reference to being paid and quote unquote exposure and in my own career I have recognized that there were certain deals that I took that may be paid less relatively but the exposure element was set up in such a way that I did feel comfortable with doing that as a way to break into a specific career move but that is less common. A lot of people just make that argument because they just want it for free and then the actual exposure that you get actually doesn’t really live up to the value that you put into that work. For me, it’s okay if Rhianna came to me and said recite, do this and it’s Rhianna. I know that that’s gonna pay off.
It’s not the case for everybody who approaches with that same sort of argument. I would say it’s really incumbent on the artist to sort of decide whether or not they feel comfortable with that and be able to trace for themselves whether or not this exposure event is actually worth it or if it’s a thing where it’s no like this isn’t worth it. Because you have to get paid. Exposure is not going to pay the bills and you should be able to feel satisfied with having completed that job regardless of whether or not the exposure element plays out. Exposure is nice sometimes but it’s not adequate. It’s very fickle compensation and it’s not something that actually keeps you fed and actually pays you your worth fairly.
So I always say to people when people are asking them to complete work for free, 99.9% of the time say no. Because again, there are instances where it could be like oh that’s interesting and I would consider it. But most of the time no. Because you have to think about the late nights. The people who are gonna say that what I mean are also going to be asking for a lot of revisions. So the late nights, the endless revisions the back and forth is all of that worth you potentially getting exposure and then having $2 in your pocket at the end of the day.
And then I’ll also say too. If you’re not being paid adequately, if exposure is one of those things where okay if you do get legitimate exposure there’s going to be a lot of time and resources and energy that’s going to go into you leveraging that exposure. So how can you leverage that exposure when you’re so tired from working for free all the time? How can you leverage that exposure when you’re too busy trying to figure out what you’re going to eat? I mean you have to be able to feel that in some way. So it’s just important that you make sure your base needs are taken care of and preferably that you’re just being paid adequately for any project that you’re taking on and you can take measured considerations based on the opportunity.
Meg: So good and I found when I was a family photographer that I would almost resent the work if I would do it at a discount or for free. You don’t want to be resenting your client
Lo: Yes you do not, you do not. I stand by that 100% because you don’t want to be in the situation where I should be able to know that you pay me enough. That even if you give me the runaround and make it really difficult for me, I can still treat this relationship professionally and still take care of you. I mean I shouldn’t have to feel like oh I’m being pulled. It’s in the best interest of both the customer and myself for us to be on fair terms otherwise. What I mean, that resentment is something that will just completely blow the whole process off and it just might not turn out how we thought it would.
Why You & Your Work Are Always Enough
Meg: Yeah that is so important to remember. So what would you say to artists listening who are really passionate about their art but they don’t know if it’s good enough? We always feel as humans, specifically women always struggle with being enough. Whether it’s our art or ourselves or whatever. So what would you say to someone who’s selling their art or whatever it is they’re creating but they don’t know if it’s enough. Did you ever struggle with that and what would you say to someone struggling?
Lo: I have struggled with that. So in my opinion I think that skill level is important. What I mean is you should be able to complete the job professionally. It should be good for whatever you’re trying to achieve. But there’s this quote from your ira glass about that sort of creative cycle that people get stuck in where they have really great taste but when they try to act on that taste it doesn’t necessarily come out how they thought it would. It takes a lot of time and practice for you to get to that point. You will know personally when you’re at that point in terms of that good enough factor.
How To Position Your Art In A Way That Makes Sense For You
I don’t think that I would ever say that this person isn’t good enough to do art full time. I think that it’s two elements. So half of it is that you need to catch up with your tastes and then the other half of it would be you need to actually find a market that makes sense for you. Because I think there are lots of talented artists whose work is very good. Who are trying to make it work, are trying to sell their art but maybe the way that they’re positioning their art or the kinds of art get opportunities that they’re trying to put their art in aren’t necessarily serving their art. If that makes sense.
So for me, I think about when I think about my own work, it’s like this whole market marketing positioning thing where I’m just like okay . My work can live in this commercial space. There are some artists who are very much like commission artists, especially artists who are really into anime and stuff who are well known for doing fan art commission’s from their fans. So like I’m not that artist.
No types of artists are better than the other but there are some people who are more like print sellers. What I mean, they make that’s very popular. They can make a living off of prints and buttons and merch. Then you have other people who are like, hey I’m going from I’m working with all of these commercial clients and that’s where I get the bulk of my income and then there are some people who are, I do children’s book illustrations. I live off of royalties and it really helps.
When we talk about the good enough thing, it’s about that monetary aspect of being able to monetize your work. So half of it is for yourself, you have tastes. Do you feel like your work is caught up to your pace? That has nothing to do with anyone else. It’s all about you and what your standards are for yourself. If you’re happy with where you’re at right now then the other aspect would be that idea of okay well where does my art fit in this world of art?
Personally, I could never be someone who’s making most of my money off of trance because I’m in new york. So I don’t really have the capacity to be printing things and shipping them from home and doing that for a handwritten letter thing. There’s some people who are really good at that. I’m not one of those people. So knowing where you fit into that world can be very helpful.
I’m just now starting to talk with Patreon and they’re setting me up to create a patreon but I even was reluctant because I was, like I don’t know if I’m the artist that my people will respond to. We’ll see when it launches but I just know patreon is a very community based thing. I was just thinking oh like will I be able to live up to that standard? So I’m gonna try it. I think it’s just a matter of finding how your art can be situated into a particular market and having that click for you and celebrate your uniqueness.
The Value In Giving, Sharing With Others, & Rising Together
Meg: Exactly. Find your unique market position. You don’t have to copy anyone else. like you can look at other people for inspiration but ultimately you are you and you need to do what works for you. That just brings me back to how you were saying that you really champion for other artists. As corny as it is, I know there will be listeners who roll their eyes like she always says that quote, but it’s so true. We rise by lifting others. The people who do that, no matter what field they’re in, those people are doing it.
Lo: How can you expect to reap wonderful fruit from this ecosystem you’re sharing with your fellow freelancers in your same marketplace if all you’re doing is taking taking taking taking? There’s value in giving. One thing that any working illustrator should have on them is if a client reaches out to them and they can’t take that job, a list of artists that they can refer that client to, who actually could potentially take that job. Even if that artist can’t take that job, they appreciate that referral and they’re more likely to do that for you as well.
I think that people get very caught up in like no no no one can do all two jobs at once. We’re all sharing the same clients, we’re all drinking from the same well and when you operate as if other people drinking from the well is somehow a harm to you, that’s when it gets problematic. What I mean to you siphon yourself off. You’re on your own. But if we are able to take care of each other, and share the water and make sure everybody’s getting something to drink, if you have too much in your cup, being able to pour something in someone else’s cup, that will always come back to you tenfold. Always.
Choosing The Abundant Mindset
Meg: Yeah, that abundance mindset over scarcity is so important. If you’re listening, and you are like, Oh, I struggle with this, just google abundance and scarcity mindset. It’s okay, if you’re struggling with the scarcity mindset of, that’s okay. Just know that about yourself. And you can unlearn these things. They are just beliefs in our subconscious mind. Look up how you can have an abundance mindset, because if you look at artists who have made it, I guess, for lack of a better word, they are rising up others.
Haylee, the founder of Whimsy & Wellness, her biggest thing she’s always saying is community over competition. And I believe that’s how Whimsy & Wellness has grown to where it is. Haylee is the least competitive person I know. She will openly talk about another brand, who maybe is making the exact same thing that she’s making, in a different style. I just see it again and again. So if you’re struggling with that, I think really looking into how do I swap out my scarcity mindset will be so worth the time.
Lo: Absolutely. I think the easiest way that I’ve been able to do it is just doing. I’m gonna get on Instagram stories. I’m just gonna compliment people today. It feels so great to be able to do that. When you say things, and you’re actually acting on it, you make that a part of your reality. And I think one more thing on the scarcity versus abundance thing, especially for artists
I like to think of opportunity as being on this carousel and all the horses are different. And people can be on different horses, and it can be going around and around. But the thing about the carousel is, it’s a circle, that horse is always going to come back around again. And even if someone is on it this round, you know what I mean? They might not be on it in the next round. And it’s okay for you to sit on a different horse or to sit on the bench and it’s all going in a circle, it’s always going to come back.
If one artist works with my dream brand it’s like, Okay, good for them! Because I’m confident that I’ll get to have that opportunity later down the line. There’s nothing saying that it won’t. There’s no, if and then statement. If they work with this artist, and they’ll never work with me, that doesn’t make any sense. Let that go and you gain so much more, and it feels so much better. And it just so much kinder for you to just be like, Hey, , I’m just gonna root people on. I’m gonna expose my fan base to other artists who I just simply admire, even though we might not even work in the same field. I will just talk about them because their work makes me happy.
Defining Art & Artists
Meg: I love that. Okay, so when we hear the word Art, oftentimes we think paint or drawings. But art and artists is such a wide umbrella. Right? So what is art to you? Who is an artist?
Lo: Yeah, I think that art is such an open field of possibility. As a digital artist, , as someone who creates using the iPad, I think that I’ve often come across people who don’t necessarily understand the value of my work, because it came out digitally. At the end of the day, it’s helpful to understand that what you’re selling is the execution of a concept that you had. The art, the medium that you use, is a tool toward that execution.
I don’t think that an artist should be penalized for the tool that they use to complete that. If I were to compare my work to traditional acrylic painting, yes, when you’re painting on acrylics on a canvas you have to go outsource different materials, you have to wait for paint to dry. If you’re a canvas structure you might stretch your canvas. There’s like this material involvement involved in that process that is special.
But then on the same token, even with digital art, I may be able to work a lot faster or don’t have to worry about waiting on paint to dry. I can correct different mistakes or undo things. There’s still a specific mastery that I, as a digital artist, would have had to understand. I had to teach myself how to do layers and masks and how to do all of these different things to make my experience my own.
If I just give the ipad to a person who’s used to acrylic painting, they probably wouldn’t be able to execute. It’s about comfort. It’s almost like what brand of pencil you choose to use. Whether you want to use a regular pencil or mechanical pencil. It’s all about your personal comfort. It’s just an extension of your hand in your mind the tool that you’re using to create with that. I think that people are starting to slowly understand the value of digital art and the effort that goes into digital art because it took me a long time for me to develop a congruency between my taste and my style and to be able to execute that through my work.
There’s value in the story behind the work and it doesn’t matter about the material so much in my opinion. I think that in the fine arts world, there is this aversion. I’ve tried to apply to artists grants before and there were so many grants that explicitly said no digital artists. In my opinion there’s a class element to that, because digital art is so accessible and it’s something that files down barriers to entry. In these art spaces and when institutions do art, that is sort of this preservation of a classes institution.
Why Anyone Can Be Creative Or Be An Artist
Meg: That’s good. For people who aren’t digital artists, maybe they’re a bread baker or they think, oh my gosh I am not creative and that’s because they can’t draw something or they can’t paint, right? So they think I’m not creative. But we as humans are creative beings. So even if you can’t paint, maybe you can bake or maybe you’re a jeweler or whatever. Anyone can be an artist. It’s not just a painter or even a digital illustrator like we are creative. If you look to artists and you’re like, I wish I could do that or be that.
Lo: I don’t subscribe to the idea that there’s certain people who just aren’t creative. Creativity is such a broad term. I can think of people who are coders who, even though coding is something people think of it as it does have logic it doesn’t involve math. There are some predetermination terms of how that math lays down even to people who are into math. There are ways that you can creatively do anything. It isn’t necessarily a set of actions.
Being creative isn’t ascribed to a set of specific actions. Being creative is about finding interesting and alternative ways or unique ways to do anything. Once you let go of that idea that being a creative is limited to these few specific things, I think that’s beneficial both to artists, visual artists and writers but it’s also beneficial to coders and bakers. Because again, that barrier to entry and what we consider to be creative, creates these stigmas that are twofold. Where the coders feel like they’re not creative and the writers and the artists feel like people don’t take what they’re doing seriously. If we open up that definition of what it means to be creative in a more broad, societal sense then I think that that does open up the field for discussion of what it means so that creatives can be taken more seriously and people can understand that there is a process and there is a logic to what goes into their work. There’s a logic that goes into my work and how I layer things. There’s creativity that goes into how someone chooses to code. It’s not left brain or right brain all the time. I think that’s an important thing to know
Meg: Again it goes back to lifting others. Your art being difficult or having a lot of steps and all of these things, someone else calling themselves an artist or a creative because they bake bread or because they do something. Maybe you believe your art is harder or whatever. Them creating isn’t muting what you can create .
Transitions From A Hobby To An Income Stream
Alright so I hope that that part encourages someone. If you’re creating anything, we are creative beings. If you have a skill set and something makes you come alive then maybe you can explore being able to profit from it. Which transitions me into my next question, how do you take the leap from your art being a hobby to a profitable source of income?
Lo: I think that for me I was already working in a similar field. I was an associate animator. I was animating things, I was creating things, so I did have the sense of what it looks like to do that professionally. I did understand that what I was doing took a lot of work so I wasn’t under estimating the work that I was doing. Which is the first thing. You have to take what you’re doing seriously and to give yourself props with that regard/ You have to decide for yourself, this isn’t a hobby, this is work. I’m making this effort. Once you have that, you’re raised up about your business.
That happened quickly for me because I was already doing something similar for work. In terms of the pay and advocating for the pay, it took me a bit. I did have my uncle help me gauge how should I price this or how should I approach that? That plus a series of very very good clients who approached me correctly the first time and showed me what I could be making in their initial pitches. I think that you will meet good people that are good clients who are going to be pretty market rate and fair and just good business partner and those experiences are very very affirming.
It resets you if you’ve been in a slump or you’re doing things under market. I think for me it was important for me to understand what my limits were in terms of prices. I think early on when people will ask how much is this, how much is that, I will be everywhere with it. Sometimes I feel really disappointed in what I actually earned so I made a rule for myself. This is so personal.
The rent rule, where essentially for me, if a smaller client comes to me, you know someone who’s looking for a podcast logo or something like that and it’s not a big business. I have this thing where I’m like because I know that this client is –especially when people are asking for me to draw their likeness which I actually don’t really like to do. Because people get really picky. They’re like can you make my chin two pixels shorter, not that deep. But I understand when people are looking at for sales and they want to feel good. What I’m doing, that already know that there are going to be lots of revisions that come with that and I Have to find a price for me that if they’re going to give me the runaround again I said this early if they’re going to give me the runaround I need to know that I was paid a price that allows me to have maximum patience with them.
So I have the rent rule where basically you’re just gonna pay my rent. To me that’s my bottom line and then also setting a standard for yourself on the types of work that you’re willing to do. I need to make sure that my time is used not to just take a lot of things. A lot of small things that were inconsequential but weirdly highly demanding would eat away at bigger things that were more impactful for my career.
How To Transition From Art As A Hobby
Part of shedding that hobby skin and getting into that business skin is being able to filter out what you are not making space to do with your time. Because if you continue to take on small hobby projects and people. When you charge, people assume that it’s not worth that much and they get a little bit loose with their requests and they’re not as professional and they ask a lot. They just assume that because they’re asking a lot and because it’s this price it probably isn’t that hard of a change for you to make.
Those interactions, those particular jobs can be dangerous. If you get a really big job from a big client is paying big and it might not even be as demanding as the smaller a smaller job you might not be equipped to be able to take that in to wrap your head around that and to put your best foot forward on that because you’re so bogged down with all these smaller jobs. So deciding what you’re going to shed you move into this professional space.
I don’t really like to do podcast logos for individuals as much. That’s a very rare thing for me to do. Those particular jobs actually take a lot more time because it’s an individual person paying out of their own pocket and it’s not a company and they want it to be perfect but then they’re actually not used to working with an illustrators so they aren’t to sure what to communicate. There are just so many things that go into that. So that’s my limit that I set for myself in order to be equipped to handle my business
Meg: That’s good knowing your bottom line. This whole thing is a lot of getting to know yourself. I’ve heard this a million times and I’m sure I’m sure listeners have too. If you treat something like a hobby you’re going to get paid like a hobby, but if you like treat it like a business like you’ll get paid like a business
Lo: Yes that’s some that sums it up completely.
Meg: It’s like we want it to be this secret potion of this is how you do it but if you want to take it from a hobby to a business just start treating it like that. You don’t want it to be more complicated
Lo: When it’s a hobby, we’ll do favors for friends and we’ll bend the rules a lot and then we might not draft a contract. There’s a casualness to that that just isn’t sustainable as a business and I understand that a person may feel concerned that they want to keep that personal aspect. They don’t want to seem rude to their friends or cold to people that they used to collaborate with in the past. But it’s also like hey you have to understand that when it’s time to really switch the gear in to take yourself seriously.
If this is a real friend, if this is someone who really believes in what you’re doing and values your work who even if you collaborated with him earlier and maybe they price out of it I think that if the relationship that y’all seem to have stays true even if they don’t buy from you they’ll respect the fact that you need to do what you need to do in order to live your dreams and in order to take your to launch your business and to really follow your dreams. If they’re not willing to support that again, they don’t have to buy from you anymore. Especially if they can’t afford it. But they shouldn’t be giving you grief about it because that’s not fair to you
Meg: Right it is a favor to them even though it doesn’t seem like it. You are doing your friend or your family member or that random brand that reached out that wants you to work for free like you’re not doing them any favors by doing it for free. Because I just don’t think like they’re not going to value it. We don’t value the things that are handed to us. The things that we work really hard for or pay a lot of money for were like okay, I had to save up a bunch of money from a paycheck or multiple paychecks for this thing. So I value it more or this took me years to get, so I value it more. So a client or a friend or whoever, if they just got that for free, they’re not gonna value it. It’s not a favor to them either really in the long run, right?
Lo: It’s not a favor to them in the long run and I think that when you do set a price for your work. What I found again it’s like when it’s cheaper I think that people get a lot more comfortable with just twisting and pulling and yanking what you’ve made and all these edits to the point where it really doesn’t look that good.
Because they just felt entitled to just have endless revisions because it’s like yeah whatever. It just cheapens the whole experience. They’re not getting their money’s worth with that versus if they paid you an appropriate amount and you had a contract you said there are two revisions. This person is being challenged to take a step back and look at everything holistically and actually decide what they want and what’s best for them instead of just making different changes willy nilly to where they’re just they got lost in the sauce. It forces the client to really take a step back and take themselves more seriously as well.
How Artists Can Work & Partner With Brands
Meg: Yeah this is so good. So you’ve done quite a bit of brand partnerships with some pretty incredible brands might I add. How can artists work towards partnering with brands?
Lo: I think that my situation was very interesting. Now that I’m over that first hurdle of attention and stuff, I think that there are a few things that you can do to really set yourself up. First thing, again keep practicing. Keep working towards your goals of taste. Keep trying different things and drawing different things and sit with yourself and figure out how you’d like to position your work. Again we talked about certain artists who like to draw fan art characters and do commissions for people or I like to work with these commercial brands or I like to sell merchandise and sell it for my own personal online shop.
Really understand what you are and are not interested in. Find, like, follow or just get to know different artists who are doing that thing that you are interested in and just so you’re just like in that loop and then within that community and really take time to build out your portfolio. If there’s a particular type of job that you would love to do, do a test run on your own time. Have that sort of work. Make the work that you want to be paid for in your portfolio. You put it up there and you can even add like, oh I wanted to do this and imagine what a campaign with Glossier would look like in my style and just have these things available.
Post and share it on instagram. I know a lot of artists are like should I make an art instagram? The answer is yes but on your own terms because I know that people do get nervous and they feel nervous about sharing or they don’t want to post something that isn’t their best work. But in order for them to get over that they just have to post it and keep trying. But making a portfolio and creating a portfolio that tells potential art directors a bit about who you are the kinds of themes that you’re interested in the kinds of brands that you’d like to work with or the kinds of work that you’d like to do. Demonstrate that through your work.
I think that portfolio building aspect, in that way experimentation on instagram, is super important. Even even something as simple as if you bought a new outfit and I can’t guarantee that they’re going to respond but if you bought a new outfit from esos and you look really good in it and you just want to do something inspired by that outfit and tag a sauce in it. Art imitates life thing or you draw yourself in it like even those things. At the very least, they might not see it but you’ve demonstrated that interest in fashion. Work with fashion brands, raw fashion things you want to work with. Beauty brands. Draw beauty things.
As you build a community on instagram and people start to follow you, art directors may slip in there and then you’ll suddenly start getting messages. Also have an email readily available in your bio as well to show that you are available for work. Have it all set up so that it’s clear and abundant that you are ready for work and it’s easy for them to contact you. Give it to the art director straight, who you are, what you, what themes you’re interested in, and what work you’re trying to make. Demonstrate that through the work that you’re making.
Meg: That’s so good. Show up as though you already have it. I feel like that goes back to the abundance mindset
Lo: yes yes like it all it’s all about the title of the episode
Meg: Yes. That is such an important thing and it’s so hard to convince people when you make something as if you’re just doing it, how easy it is to get people on board with what you’re doing. Because they see the potential. You can’t really show the potential through words all the time I mean it’s not enough tot message esos on and be like, I want to draw for your brand. Who can I talk to? I mean maybe it will work, but you can’t expect any response. Especially if you haven’t drawn anything and you’re not showing anything.
The work you’re making is irrelevant to what you’re asking to do. You have to show proof of concept which is interesting. When you live as if you’re just doing it, that just shows it’s so it’s so much easier for people to really pour into that vision and to buy into that vision and to make that closer to a reality
Lo: yeah so don’t wait for those brand partnerships or whatever your next big goalie. Ithink we often are like oh when this happens and I’ll do that. But is that thing that you want so bad? Could that knock on your door right now like would that brand come to you right now with like what would incentivize them to do that?
If you’re drawing animal pictures and you really want to just draw fashion pictures but you just have pictures of dogs on your instagram, I don’t know what to tell you except draw the things you want to be making. And this is for anyone. Not just illustrators. Whatever you’re making, whatever you’re creating like work backwards seriously
How To Approach Brands To Work With Them
Meg: Okay so e how do you approach a brand you want to partner with? Or do you not approach them or how does that work?
Lo: I’ve been lucky that I haven’t had to approach any brands yet. I’m just making things and publishing things and making things. The act of me publishing things just intraday and then they just reach out. So it’s this constant flow of work but it’s coming in at the moment but I would say I mean some people would consider representation. There are other things that you have to think about, whether or not representation is for you or not. Because it’s not always the answer.
When you’re producing good work, and you’re building a community with other artists, and you’re drawing the things that you want to be doing, you’ll surprised at the people who, on private accounts, will just follow you who like work at these big brands, or as a marketing person for this big brand. Because I think a lot of the opportunities that I’ve gotten have all come through people who follow me, or whose friends follow me on Instagram and talked about my work.
Most of my biggest jobs really have come from people who follow you on Instagram, and I love your work. And I’ll still work at this company. That’s how it happens for me. I know that I’ve only ever had to do this once where again, they reached out to me. I recently completed some work for the other art fair, sponsored by Sachi Art Society Six. It’s this art fair that usually happens in different cities. Everyone shows up, and they buy from different artists, and it’s sponsored by Bombay Sapphire. A
This year it’s completely virtual. So it was the first global VR fair and their 10 year anniversary. When they reached out to me , I actually did the opening videos for the website, and also that extended into another job that I did for them regarding the art fair. And when they reached out to me originally about that, they were like, hey, do you want to put in a pitch? I need to do this animation. So that was the first time that I really had to actually, I was familiar with doing pitches for work, but we’ve made decks and everything. So that was the first time that I actually had to make things with the possibility of not getting the job, but haven’t made it.
So I actually just went ahead and style framed a bunch of stuff and put together a compelling presentation, and then I got the bid. But other than that, again, that was a person reaching out to me and asking me to put a bid in. So yeah, I would just say the best possible thing for you to do is to focus on getting your work where you want it and making sure there are congruences between what you want and what you’re showing the world that you want. And then if you are feeling stuck, then maybe you could start to consider an agency. But agencies aren’t gonna build the career for you, there’s going to have to be some work on your end to really get to where you want it to be.
Meg: I feel for artists that are waiting, because I’m sure it’s lonely to just be in between, ?
Lo: I can think of so many talented artists that I personally follow, who get jobs every now and then. I think that it might not be as viral, but they’re so talented. They’re on the cusp of finding their niche and stuff. And I think, what’s the right brand? Even if they’re interested, because I don’t even know if they’re all interested in working with brands. Some of them are not right. And that’s okay.
But if they are interested in working with brands, then it really comes down to just continueing to do your thing hoping that the right brand comes along. Following along or following artists who are collaborating with certain brands, and just trying to just present the best version of yourself and your work.
Meg: Yeah. And I feel like there are some brands who have somewhere on their website, especially smaller brands. They have a spot where it says partnerships or even a contact, and I feel like it can’t hurt to reach out, right.
Lo: Yeah, and I think one thing that I will say, artists sleep on LinkedIn, y’all need to use LinkedIn more seriously. Y’all be sleeping on it. linkedin like people people like to poop on linkedin because it’s like you always corporate and it is it is corporate but linkedin is such a powerful tool and when you have a robust linkedin presence and everything is filled out it is so much easier for you to stumble upon vps of marketing at different companies and you can follow them and then if you if your linkedin is fully fleshed out they can follow you and be like oh that’s interesting Ihave literally like one time I like license some of my work to this like marketing agency who gives gifts to different their their different clients and they want to their clients was this major credit card company and they they like bought they bought some of my they bought license tomorrow they made these beautiful scarves with it and then they gave it out as gifts to these different stakeholders at these companies and then on linkedin I get tagged in this in this post with this woman like holding one of my scars and saying oh I love this little hair scarf and they work they’re like a vp at this like major brand and then all of the people in their network are looking at it and commenting like oh I want that I want that and then someone from like a tech commerce company messaged me and said oh I’m gonna forwards it okay if I forward your portfolio to this person in case we want to do anything for our internally with us any mean like that that will those were so many major dots can be connected like really the thing about these brands is I think that it’s very easy for people to fall in love with the blue checkmark and the big accounts with the followings and think that they’ll those are the people that you’re going through but if they’re really just like everyday folks who may be following your art with a private account who just happen to love your art and happen to work at this place and then they bring you up in a meeting yeah that’s like the power of it and I think that having a robust linkedin presence is like one way to find different people within the industry and based on their their titles so haven’t been available on linkedin and also linkedin is a beautiful way to share what you’re doing what I mean like it’s clear because you’re sharing it on linkedin that you are looking you are doing this from a professional place this isn’t from just like I’m an instagram artists plays like you are actively trying to make connections with people in business and when you’re sharing what you’re doing on linkedin the networks are so interesting and things go viral in really weird ways on linkedin that you never know who could who could be looking at what you put out there
Meg: Yeah that’s so true. Get your name out there however you do it. Instagram, linkedin, clubhouse is really big right now. However you do get your name and you’re out there because people can’t find you if you’re just in your room
Artistic Collaboration With Whimsy & Wellness
Um which I get I love my room sometimes but we got to get our name and our art out there if we want to be discovered. Speaking of collaborations, you did a collaboration with our company, Whimsy & Wellness that at the time of this episode have already launched which is so exciting. They are a set of three essential oil roller bottles featuring your artwork. The collection is called earth and we are in love. Can you tell us a little bit about that collaboration what it was inspired by?
Lo: Yes when Whimsy reached out they wanted to do something that was inspired by mudcloth designs. There were lots of different mud cloth patterns and everything and I was like okay this is cool but I wanted to do something more pictorial or more representative I would say. Because it was coming up from the spring, I wanted to play with those elemental aspects.
One of them has these floral like motif with lines but it looks like two legs with two leaves sticking up to me. Even though they’re just these simple mudcloth style lines, or these sons that are just circles and it’s a very rudimentary sun. They were pretty simple but I didn’t want to do something that was representational of those element.
Meg: Okay well they are beautiful. We recently had a team call and Haylee like showed us the earth rollers and we were squealing over them. They are so beautiful, you did such a great job. So Whimsy & Wellness love to give back and every once in a while we will pick a specific collection or a random day and just pick an organization that we want to give back to and we wanted to do that with the earth collection which is available now. Instead of picking our own or picking on our own a non for a nonprofit we asked you. So can you tell the listeners a little bit about the nonprofit that you chose that some of the proceeds from the earth collection will be going to?
Giving To Plant Power
Lo: Yes I suggested this place called Power Plant. It’s only based in New York City but essentially this network of artists who provide digital arts education and access for everybody. As we talked about earlier I think digital art is such an accessible form of expression that helps people clear class boundaries and financial boundaries. It’s infinite and I think there’s so much power in that. So they do provide different resources mentorship education to help young people thrive in the creative economy. It’s just a space where the digital arts community engages with these young fledging next generation creators and I think it also functions as a gallery space as well and environment where people from all sorts of backgrounds can come and learn the skills necessary for them to really thrive creatively
Meg: I love that you chose that it’s called power plant.
Lo: I was wondering if it was approved or not because I didn’t hear back after I suggested it. Haylee said she loved it but I wasn’t sure if it was solidified yet.
Meg: Yes it is solidified. I think they were deciding between saying 100% of the proceeds or I think that comes out to being like $7 or something. I think they were trying to like, what do consumers like to hear? $1 amount or a percentage more? So I think they’re still working on that but they’re definitely donating to power plant which is so awesome
So the earth collection is now available on our website. Just search earth and you can see Lo’s artwork on the outside of the bottles. They are so beautiful. Alright before we move to rapid fire questions do you have any little last bit of encouragement that you can pour over listeners who are just hungry to transform their art into a business?
Use Your Voice & Make Room For Others
Lo:I would say always use your voice And if you are someone who’s listening, and artists are a creative person and in a place of power, who is listening, it is imperative that you use the weight of your voice because you have a very strong voice to make space for other people’s voices.
So if you have that power upon you, spread the wealth, because when you do that, again, like we are, it’s contributing to a healthier ecosystem. And this goes not only for creators of color, it goes for women creators, it goes for digital creators. Whatever identity culture that you’re in. When you do that and when you open spaces, when you use your voice to make room for other people’s voices who probably don’t have that sort of attention given to them in the room when they’re trying to speak it only contributes to the good. And when we take care of the most vulnerable among us, we all thrive. It does not take away from anything. When we take care of each other, it contributes to everybody. So that would be my biggest takeaway, whether you’re just getting started, or whether you are deep into your career. It’s just imperative that we continue that culture of just giving and sharing and giving flow to our peers. That’s the most important thing.
Meg: I love that. All right. Are you ready for rapid fire? We need a drum roll on this podcast. I wish I could tell my younger self blank.
Lo: Honestly wish that I could tell my younger self that my mind and my preoccupations were the most important things. That I could bet that I have. I think that when I was younger, I was so concerned with, oh Why don’t boys like me? Or why don’t I look this way? I went to this school where many of the girls were like white girls who were skinny. I was just so preoccupied with those things that at the end of the day, my visions, my preoccupations with the things that make me, that really put a fire under my blood are the things that really matter to me. So that’s what I would tell her.
Meg: Beautiful. Okay, I’m inspired by blank.
Lo: I’m inspired by joyful characters that I meet throughout my own life. I think that there’s a sense of specificity and universality that goes into my work where these characters are not a specific person, but they have features about them that are so specific that anyone can look at them and feel like this reminds me of my friend so and so. It doesn’t matter. It reminds me of my dad or just reminds me of my auntie.
Meg: I love that. Okay, what’s something people get wrong about you?
Lo: Honestly, I don’t necessarily know if this is the thing that people get wrong, but I like to wear different wigs and change up my look. People don’t know what my real hair looks like, or people do know but I think that maybe they just think I look one way and it’s just like, No, I just like to change it up and have different identities.
Meg: I love it. What’s your late night guilty pleasure snack?
Lo: I would die for Whole Foods, cookies and cream ice cream. Oh my god.
Meg: Okay, ice cream snob, and I’ve never had Whole Foods, cookies and cream.
Lo: The 365 cookies a cream really slaps. It tastes like a cloud with cookies, and milk. It tastes like cookies and milk and not anything like a cloud.
Meg: Oh my gosh, you’re my soul sister. That question is my favorite. The whole time that I’m asking people rapid fire. I’m just like, okay, hurry up and get to the late night guilty pleasure snack so we can talk about food because it’s always so fun.
Lo: Definitely. I’ve been eating almonds and trying to be good today I’m buffer I’m not sure I’m going to order a blackberry pie today I’m gonna go off that’s good I’m gonna do a blackberry pie everybody listening go get some cookies and cream or a blackberry pie and honor of hello
Meg: We’re all just gonna be eating cookies and cream blackberry pie scrolling your instagram like it’s gonna be amazing okay where can listeners find you and follow along with you and your art
Lo: All of my most up to date work is going to be on Loharries_ art on instagram. I actually am working with someone to develop a brand new website currently but until then you can join the Lo Harris universe by just following me on instagram.
I’m going to be creating a patreon soon to help actually support me being able to do more personal commissions for people. So I’m going to be launching this patreon and the big feature behind it is the higher tier. They’re going to be exclusive quarterly prints that are digitally signed and you won’t be able to get them elsewhere and then the second big takeaway is a lot of people messaged me and they’re like, I’d love for you to draw me or to draw my grandma or to draw me and my girlfriend.
We love your work but because I’m always subsumed in these commercial ventures, it’s very hard for me to carve out time to do work for smaller entities or individuals and I don’t feel comfortable asking them to pay what a person would pay for a podcast logo or something like that. So in order to sponsor that for myself and to be able to make space to do that for a few people every month I’m going to have a portrait of the month contest where on the patreon I’m going to ask people a random question and then whatever answers are like i’ll pick them and then they get a portrait of themselves or a loved one that they can just have a way for me to be able to just draw everyday people.
That’s not out yet but it’ll be around and then finally youtube lo harris on youtube seriously go like it please subscribe to it please comment on it I really want to build a community around that I really do want to help people I really want to be engaged with people and to create content that people actually want I’m sure there are answers that I have deep in my soul that I haven’t even thought about yet because someone hasn’t triggered anger in me to have to do that yet. Don’t wait for someone to make me angry about the answer you want so just comment subscribe and let me know and I’m more than happy to just continue these conversations there
Meg: If you love to laugh I clicked over to Lo’s youtube the other day when she sent it to me before our interview and within like three minutes of the first video I clicked on I was like cracking up. So you can learn but also be entertained she’s really fun
Lo: I’ve been getting more comfortable on camera definitely because I used to be like hello my name is Lo I’m a robot. Now I’m like alright y’all. I’m eating almonds a little bit and this video, sorry.
Meg: So that’s awesome. Well you have been such a gift and from your art to your personality. I’m just so grateful that you came on the show and you shared so much with our listeners. I think people are gonna have a lot of takeaways. So thank you so much for your time and your wisdom
Lo: thank you so much for having me and thank you so much for the great questions. I have a lot of fun with this and I hope that it is helpful for people. I just want people to be okay
Meg: I have to say our founder, Haylee, her signature thing is I just want everyone to be okay. I want people to feel okay. So that’s amazing that you just said that.
Lo: I’m glad we’re all on the same page. Yes everyone will be okay abundance that’s the theme for the episode today